Revised Increase Min Staking

Democracy
1

1. Update to Minimum Staking Requirement

We are updating the minimum staking requirement to better align with current market conditions and the evolving needs of the network.

Current Requirement:

  • 1,000 XX coins

New Requirement (Effective January 1, 2025):

  • 15,000 XX coins

To ensure a steady and sustainable progression, the minimum staking requirement will increase by 5,000 XX coins monthly, starting February 2025, subject to monthly reviews for adjustments in case of excessive coin price fluctuations. This approach allows flexibility to adapt based on network performance, market conditions, and community feedback.

2. Technical Details: What the Minimum Bond Increase Means for Validators

The minimum staking requirement increase affects validators in different ways depending on their current status. Here’s a detailed breakdown:

  1. Active Validators Below the New Minimum (15,000 XX):
  • Continue Validating: If you’re already validating with less than 15,000 XX, you can continue without interruption.
  • Unbonding Restriction: The chain enforces that your active stake remains at or above the minimum bond required as a validator.
    • Example: A validator with 14,000 XX trying to unbond 5,000 XX will fail because the remaining stake (9,000 XX) is below the new minimum bond of 15,000 XX.
  1. Validators Who Get Chilled:
  • If you go offline and are chilled, you cannot re-enter the validator set until your stake meets or exceeds the new minimum bond.
    • Example: A validator with 10,000 XX who is chilled must increase their stake to 15,000 XX before they can rejoin the validator set.
  1. How Unbonding Works:
  • Whenever you attempt to unbond, the network checks your remaining stake to ensure it meets the minimum bond required as a validator.
  • If the remaining amount is below the required minimum, the unbonding transaction will fail.
    • Example: A validator with 12,000 XX attempting to unbond 4,000 XX will fail because the remaining 8,000 XX is below the new minimum of 15,000 XX.
  1. Challenges for New Validators:
  • The increased minimum bond means new validators must lock up a larger amount of stake to join the waiting list.
    • Example: A new validator must bond 15,000 XX to join the waiting list. If they are not elected, they can switch to nominating for rewards instead.

3. Example Scenarios for Clarity

Scenario 1: Active Validator Below 15,000 XX

  • Current Stake: 1,000 XX
  • Action: Continue validating normally. Cannot unbond funds unless the bond is topped up to 15,000 XX.

Scenario 2: Validator Gets Chilled

  • Current Stake: 12,000 XX
  • Action: Cannot re-enter the validator set until the bond is increased to 15,000 XX.

Scenario 3: Unbonding Attempt

  • Current Stake: 14,000 XX
  • Unbonding 5,000 XX: Fails because the remaining stake (9,000 XX) is below the 15,000 XX minimum.

Scenario 4: New Validator

  • Required Bond: 15,000 XX
  • Risk: Must lock up funds to join the waiting list. If not elected, can switch to nominating instead.

Scenario 5: Validator with Split Stake Between Stash and Controller Accounts

  • Stake Setup: A validator has 2,500 XX in their stash account and 12,500 XX in their controller account, bringing their total to 15,000 XX.
    • Meets Requirements: The combined stake of 15,000 XX satisfies the minimum bond requirement, and the validator can continue validating or unbond funds within this limit.
    • Does Not Meet Requirements: If the validator has 2,500 XX in their stash account and 10,000 XX in their controller account, the total of 12,500 XX falls short of the minimum requirement. The validator must increase their stake in either account to meet the 15,000 XX threshold before they can unbond or resume validating if chilled.
6 Likes
2

The different scenarios are clear, thanks. Right now I don’t oppose it, but can you speak more on what the end goal of this change is? The reasons given aren’t very clear to me.

3

It’s a huge jump but it’s way much better thank you !
If I can do one remark is to wait 2 months so March 1 2025 before increase of +5k for have a real return over the consequences of these changes. From my estimation it will impact about a little less than 30 validators during the first month in January. We should look what happen with these validators if buy coins or just nominate or if unbond and leave.

I think the question of bradford is really good. I see two main points :

“+” One reason is stop people who play with commission from 2% to 100%. I approve that’s an effective way for stop them or slow down their method.
“+” Second reason try to stop to have so many validators with a very low stake and have more engagement from a validator.

“-” We need to keep a number of validators in the waiting list for replace by example a Cryptocalibur who have leaved with dozen of nodes already twice these last time. No one know if will not leave anytime soon.
“-” If we can’t have enough validator we should reduce number of validators who can cause issue to the image of XX Network and other point linked we can’t exclude validators who cause timeout or issue to network by pushing them in the waiting list.

4

There are several goals, all related to the functioning of the network.

  • The role of validators in an NPoS system such as ours cannot be overstated, especially since they are the ones that run cMixx. While cMixx itself doesn’t require “honest” validators, we don’t want to have lousy or even compromised validators control 20% or (obviously, Game Over-level) 70% of the network. So the role must not be easy to get and retain
  • The min validator stake used to be 14K XX (too low) before it was inexplicably voted down to the 1K XX. Then the drop in the price happened (probably to 1/6th of the then-price), so the absurdly low minimum stake was lowered to 1/84th of that low amount (some of it due to community members such as @warnings - had the minimum stake started at US$1, he would have wanted to make it 1 cent, to get all Amazonian tribes a chance to validate)
  • Now that TM is going away, there is nothing that “protects” validators from even minimally competent competition. Many have stood by and still run on 1K, 5K or 8K, even as the sum of their own stake and TM has melted from 51K to 26K and soon to 1K XX. Clearly there’s no sense of urgency or desire to do anything to earn that commission
  • Due to XX token inflation, staked amounts are growing and with these days you need 230K XX on the node to get elected. Having validators with as little as 1K XX ($55) on the node find themselves in the role to be trusted by XX token holders, nominators and cMIxx users is completely insane. One can stand up 250 nodes with $14,000 (1K XX 250 at $0.056) - you could literally sweep a CC, get all the coins you need and then sweep it once more in AWS, and start taking over.
  • Misbehaving nodes (100-percenters, scammers, incompetent and semi-competent pools) do what they want, because they can. Get $560, stand up 10 validator nodes, and do whatever you want.
  • None of the above should be need to be justified or highlighted because not one NPOS network has the minimum validator bond set at such a laughable level. It should be 20 K US$, not 20K XX. There’s no need or reason to allow a person without a large financial stake on the node be in the position, and yet we have dozens. It’s time to remedy that.

So the goal is to make validators do a better job. For the network, for the users, for the hodlers.

3 Likes
5

Thanks for the clear explanation. I get your last point, and agree there should be a higher barrier to entry. I almost stood up an ethereum node but went all in on this. Now I can’t afford to! But balancing the minimum validator stake should be balanced with the average stake required to be in the validator set. I don’t expect upping it even to 50k would radically upset the validator set.

7

I don’t mean to challenge you and I know no one knows much about the situation others are facing but it would appear you could simply validate from the Hacktoberfest reward wallet which must remain locked for a long while, no?
I don’t know if you’ve thought about that approach.

I’d gladly nominate you if you’re concerned about being elected.

Well, there have been several figures and approaches (one off vs. gradual, etc.) as we’ve seen on the forum from an earlier post. Now it’s starting from a figure that’s similar to what we had before, and supposed to go up from there (barring dramatic swings in XX price). At first, 14/230 (min to get elected these days) is 6%, it doesn’t seem like a lot.

Many Substrate chain take more than 100 times as much as xx Network today (or 20-30 times more after the hike) to validate, we’re probably the worst (or the best, some would say) and most “vulnerable” if the amount at stake is proportional to security of the chain.

I can’t say either, but I expect things to improve. First, sock-puppeteering will become pricier: now you can run 3 days at 20%, 2 days at 100%, and make 30+30+170+170 XX (>400XX) from their 1K XX stake, rotate the address, and you have 1K XX frozen for 28d - not a big deal. Meanwhile you put in another 1K XX wallet to work, so you need just 7 such 1K XX wallets to make 2K XX a month.
If you validate with 50K XX to run a node this way, and charge 20%, you’d make 1,500 XX per month. The scammer made 2K XX on his 7K XX investment…

If course, above is a perfect case scenario for the scammer, but it also uses 1/7th of 50K to make 30% more. Some no doubt run less obvious versions of this.

With the minimum stake of 15K XX they can still do it, but it’s harder. The scammer would now need 100K XX to pull it off (vs 7K XX before).

And this isn’t the last step in the fight against scammers and bad actors. It’s only the second.

The first one was early this week when Simple Staking now skips any address that had 100% set before.
It’s a simple step but now these scammers who had maybe 10K XX and pulled this BS from time to time, only to revert to 20% until they attract new validators and then scam them as well, can no longer do that.
If one has < 230K (i.e can’t self-nominate to election) and they drop out of Simple Staking, obviously the only other venue left is manual selection which

  • Few people use that
  • People who do nominate from xx Wallet also tend to look at the charts and see last 2-3 months where they can spot the commission spikes
    So now anyone who set 100% at any point in past 1100 eras is done and has to unbond if they want to scam again, but that takes 28 days. Not bad. They’re now blocked until mid December.

They can reappear and do it again (this time at 99%, and soon with at least 14K XX), but they know we can simply adjust the rule to 90% or 50% any time, so some of them will get the message. And Simple Staking will get other improvements.

The second step is this hike, so no more scammers with 1K or 10K XX.

And there will be additional steps. We can add an additional 5 measures in 2025, and every time all their funds will take 28 days to unbond and move.
Most will eventually get the message and move on to scam people elsewhere, while the rest of us should have a healthier network, less frustrated nominators and validators, and better security.

8

Sorry I wasn’t clear, I meant validating an Ethereum node. I had the thought in the early days of xx to sell a large amount of my holdings and diversify. Kicking myself now, but it is what it is!

9

That’s great. Fully agree that this needs to increase.

1 Like
10

I’ve proposed this as a referendum:

Motion to Raise Minimum Stake

Noted here:

https://explorer.xx.network/extrinsics/15802685-1

(Copy the “Bytes” in the parameters, and you can decode the whole document in a hex decoder: Unicode Converter - encoding / decoding | CodersTool )

When it passes proposal stage, it will be up for referendum. News alert will be posted when that happens:

https://wallet.xx.network/#/democracy

4 Likes
11

Our democracy UIs leave a lot to be desired…

On one’s gateway box or other Linux system:

PROP='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echo $PROP | xxd -p -r

I’ve no idea what happened with this thing.
I’ll have to write a Python script to figure it out…

And they say Voter ID laws make it hard to participate in a democracy… :sweat_smile:

1 Like
12

The link Rick provided doesn’t go directly to the tool you need to use.
Try UTF8 Encode Decode. Put the BYTES in the UTF-8 field.

If you’re trying from the terminal using xxd …
Put the BYES into a file first (echo, nano, you choose).
Specify infile and outfile names.

$ echo 'BYTES_FROM_EXTRINSIC' > infile-bytes
$ xxd -r -p infile-bytes outfile-text
$ cat outfile-text
13

Well, the example I provided works fine as is.

But the outcome/result is not listed in the wallet so I can’t see what happened and who voted how.
I’m going to write a script for that part so that I can view outcomes of Democracy referenda and Council motions. (I haven’t done this yet.)

On that note - since results can’t be seen, we should have the results posted here after voting is done, for the less technical users to be able to see what happened
How do people who voted find out what happened without using developer console?

If this referendum passed, is it now up to someone from the Council (any specific role?) to submit a motion with changed cMixx variables?

14

All is listed on polkassembly no ?

15

It would be more convenient if we could view the agenda directly on the website
I believe there must be a more convenient way to access the agenda.

1 Like
16

Yes, and PolkaAssembly was the place to go, but they made some changes which broke integration with xx Chain and now that site shows out-of-date info (up to the point the changes broke the integration).

It’d require work & resources to accommodate their changes.

17

I don’t have much time today to make this pretty but here are the results …

Total Accounts Voted: 112
Total Votes : 115
Ayes: 114
Nays: 1

Account Vote
6ZCYbiKFv7zdQSctyK8jaWUXac5SUASZ2hSLAtbuf5Ke3vFo Aye
6Vw4PYpZgjxtxxXxgeHtW19Pg1BxXRm2bwwBfh9KdDu5E4yD Aye
6Xoia9MAhs1yC2nC8qezftTPVUNkiCQVrJQ3FnQTu8YCVttu Aye
6Xoia9MAhs1yC2nC8qezftTPVUNkiCQVrJQ3FnQTu8YCVttu Aye
6XiK7tiHuJ5tWXtJJmhbWsS3h7ovdQYp38RQzY6wWqc2AWMQ Aye
6XvWxQui3647iReRzMEAe3hdPSMtV61C9hYxbaLnoPGM4fJ8 Aye
6Vp2xhNjuAafWjhyb267rtaN63CsD9Fr2gQPBADMJr9RUAN6 Aye
6VMBPjeLHTM5qerw2zJCHs9t3VyeChf2MiE35MesLRxkb1wW Aye
6ZFLXjjPjLA39PxUeRo9uckSbQFYyrk821ajcPkrVBym9FET Aye
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3 Likes
18

Referendum ID 28 is to schedule change of the relevant variable on xx chain for Jan 01, 2025.

This one needs to pass although the vote to approve it already passed, so effectively we have to pass this twice, the first time was to support the change and the second time to effect it.

https://wallet.xx.network/#/democracy

1 Like
19

Yeah that’s on me, I didn’t think it through and should have just submitted the change directly.

2 Likes
20

Be careful please we lose already about 10 validators before even this change happen.
I’d hate to see my anticipations come true.